balunasj
:
We'll give some people time to join the meeting before getting started
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10:03am
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ilya_shaikovsky joined the chat room.
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10:05am
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abelevich joined the chat room.
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10:05am
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balunasj
:
I don't see alex online yet and it does not make much sense to go over the agenda with out him.
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10:06am
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balunasj
:
We'll give him a few more minutes
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10:06am
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alexsmirnov joined the chat room.
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10:07am
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balunasj
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alexsmirnov: Hi Alex
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10:07am
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alexsmirnov
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Hi everyone!
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10:07am
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abelevich
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hi
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10:07am
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ilya_shaikovsky
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Hi!
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10:08am
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balunasj
:
ok I have posted the agenda in the IRC channel
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10:08am
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nbelaevski
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hello
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10:08am
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balunasj
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and I have also posted a draft agenda for the 4.0 part of the meeting next week that I wanted to review and add anything else that was needed
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10:08am
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balunasj
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please take a look
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10:10am
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balunasj
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I wanted to start off with a general discussion about the high level goals and scope for 4.0 - we basically already know it - but I want to use it to help guide our feature set.
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10:10am
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balunasj
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Next is a build system review where I want to discuss workflow, dependencies, and packaging.
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10:11am
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balunasj
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Then I really want to spend the most ammount of time on the CDK and the 4.0 core changes, design and planning
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10:11am
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balunasj
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We have not spent a lot of time on the 4.0 core design and I feel this is more important that some of the CDK work
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10:12am
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balunasj
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Thoughts, comments so far?
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10:13am
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pmuir
:
sounds good - starting with a high level overview will be good (for me at least) as it will allow us to see where we are putting our resources re JSF
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10:13am
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alexsmirnov
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You right. I've started design documents for core, but did not pay close attention to that yet.
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10:14am
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balunasj
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alexsmirnov: ok good I would be interested in anything you have so far.  I know you have been putting a lot into the CDK.
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10:15am
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balunasj
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pmuir: yes I think it will be good for everyone to have a solid foundation for 4.0 so we limit scope/feature creep.
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10:15am
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balunasj
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alexsmirnov, nbelaevski: if you have any bullet points for the agenda please let me know
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10:16am
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balunasj
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ok so once we discuss the
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10:17am
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balunasj
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1) build system
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10:17am
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balunasj
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2) RF Core
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10:17am
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balunasj
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3) CDK
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10:17am
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balunasj
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I want move on to discussing component migration plans and process
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10:18am
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balunasj
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This is where we need to discuss who, when, how resources can move from 3.3.2 work and begin working on 4.0
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10:18am
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balunasj
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Workflow and process refer to a couple of things
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10:18am
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alexsmirnov
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As any long-maintained code, some parts of CDK  seems horrible :-(. I guess any other parts of project need cleanup too.
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10:19am
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balunasj
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alexsmirnov: Agreed and it is natural but we can take this opportunity to clean up the code & design the way we think it should be
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10:20am
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balunasj
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I will add a conversation on general code cleanup and standards as well.
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10:20am
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balunasj
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And this is directly related to component migration as well.
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10:20am
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clerum left the chat room. (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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10:20am
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balunasj
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I think the component migration will go something like this:
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10:21am
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balunasj
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3.3.2 --> compatibility changes for new CDK/Core --> 4.0.0 ui-sandbox -->
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10:22am
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clerum joined the chat room.
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10:22am
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balunasj
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semantic layout changes, source code review, markup updates etc... ---> 4.0.0 UI
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10:23am
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balunasj
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This way we can control better what is going to be included and standards - we should also add in check style plugin
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10:23am
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balunasj
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We can go over the details at the meeting
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10:24am
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balunasj
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Another big item I want to discuss next week a component review
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10:24am
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balunasj
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like the datatable discussions from a while back
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10:25am
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alexsmirnov
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What about code standards ? Is it make sense to write out code conventions ?
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10:25am
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balunasj
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out of this I would like a priority list of component for migration and also a list of component that need to be effectively rewritten or redesigned from scratch
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10:26am
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balunasj
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alexsmirnov: yes I think it does make sense and I said I'll add a point for general coding standards.
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10:27am
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balunasj
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Especially as we have several community contributors who seem active and want to help these will be important
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10:28am
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balunasj
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Part of this outcome will be wiki/project pages that will outline them as well.  This should also include JavaScript, and performance items like :
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10:28am
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balunasj
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http://code.google.com/speed/page-speed/docs/rules_intro.html
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10:28am
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balunasj
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and others
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10:30am
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balunasj
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For tooling I would like to coordinate and have Max on a phone call for this part
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10:31am
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balunasj
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oh before I move on does anyone have any comments on the component review?  Priorities suggestions for the agenda, etc...?
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10:33am
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balunasj
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ok so on to tooling
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10:34am
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balunasj
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I would like to have Max on the line with us during the tooling talk so we can get his perspective and we can discuss JSF 2.0 tooling in general as well.
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10:35am
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balunasj
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Lower priority, but do would want CDK tooling, much like how Seam-gen is tooled?
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10:35am
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balunasj
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for example, or changes to the visual editor
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10:35am
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balunasj
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any thoughts or ideas in the area for the agenda?
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10:37am
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ilya_shaikovsky
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yes.. suonds cool.. tolling will be really helpfull for the customers.. even like simple seam gen tasks
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10:37am
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alexsmirnov
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Most of components code does not depend to CDK, especially JavaScript code.
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10:39am
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balunasj
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ilya_shaikovsky: ok good  - let know if you have anything to add to the agenda related
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10:40am
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balunasj
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alexsmirnov: I'm not getting your point on the CDK and component dependency?
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10:41am
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alexsmirnov
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Sorry. I meant what some components development tasks do not depend from CDK.
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10:42am
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balunasj
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alexsmirnov: ok that is good, but are you referring to tooling, or something else?
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10:43am
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balunasj
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alexsmirnov: The CDK tooling would just be a nice to have for component creation much like the seam-gen tooling.
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10:43am
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pmuir
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balunasj: whether or not we want CDK tooling depends on whether we are making the CDK a first class project, and resources to put into productizing it
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10:44am
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pmuir
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balunasj: we need to look at what value it offers people
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10:44am
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balunasj
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pmuir: Agree, but I think it is a valid brainstorming item for discussing.  We certainly will reviewing
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10:44am
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balunasj
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the CDK in general prior to this discussion anyway
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10:45am
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balunasj
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but I understand your point
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10:45am
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pmuir
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balunasj:
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10:45am
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pmuir
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i just don't see how it has any applicability for anyone who isn't developing a component suite
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10:46am
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balunasj
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pmuir: I don't think it does
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10:46am
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balunasj
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but it developing components can be made easy enough - maybe more people would
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10:46am
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balunasj
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maybe not though - hehe
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10:47am
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alexsmirnov
:
Components development depends form CDK. Framework does not, so it could be developed in parallel. But components have a lot of utility code that should be reviewed too.
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10:47am
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balunasj
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ok just so we can get through the agenda lets move on
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10:47am
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balunasj
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alexsmirnov: agreed & I will added a parallel development discussion to the CDK/core area
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10:48am
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balunasj
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So we also need to talk about performance improvements both the core and to the component suite while we are migrating.
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10:48am
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balunasj
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One thing that just came up with seamframework.org was the resource loading on the first requests
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10:49am
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balunasj
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I'm sure we have other areas to review as well - js, css optimizations currently being prototyped in 3.3.2
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10:49am
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balunasj
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etc...
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10:51am
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alexsmirnov
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balunasj: Question related to performance. What tools are better to profile code? I've tried Eclipse TPTP profiler before, but its results does not informative for code optimization.
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10:52am
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alexsmirnov
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Do you know, what other Jboss projects use ?
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10:53am
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balunasj
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I used jprofiler for server side seam and it worked quite well
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10:54am
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balunasj
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I think other tools like page speed help on the client side
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10:54am
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balunasj
:
what has exadel used in the past?
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10:55am
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nbelaevski
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eclipse tptp
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10:56am
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balunasj
:
ok
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10:56am
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balunasj
:
I'm not sure if it will happen in the correct timeframe, but a performance lab setup with a private hudson for perf testing would be good, but
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10:56am
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nbelaevski
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we can get OS license for something better, e.g. YourKit
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10:57am
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balunasj
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this has been talked about for years
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10:58am
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abelevich
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sorry guys I had to go ...
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10:58am
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abelevich left the chat room. ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]")
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11:00am
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alexsmirnov
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Indeed, my question was : Does Jboss have licenses for some commercial profiling tools ?
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11:00am
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balunasj
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alexsmirnov: we have some OS licenses
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11:00am
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balunasj
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for jprofiler
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11:00am
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balunasj
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and may be able to get more for other tools if it will hel
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11:01am
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balunasj
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help
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11:02am
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balunasj
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so wrap up the agenda we need to develop a better release process, which I think we started in the last release and can build on
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11:02am
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balunasj
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especially attempting to release based on a maven build/module system
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11:02am
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alexsmirnov
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Probably, we have to get open source license as we did that for clover test code coverage tool
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11:03am
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balunasj
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I think in the end it will be easier, but may take time tweaking.
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11:03am
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balunasj
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alexsmirnov: exactly
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11:04am
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balunasj
:
Then we need to define our QE and doc expectations
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11:06am
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balunasj
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and then finally we can take a look at some futures
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11:07am
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balunasj
:
like JavaFX, JSF 2.1
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11:07am
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balunasj
:
etc...
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11:08am
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balunasj
:
So if anyone has comments or additions please let me know
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11:09am
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balunasj
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I will be writing up a meeting document tomorrow (i hope)
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11:09am
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balunasj
:
With the full agenda, plans, and expectations so we can all hit the ground running.
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11:11am
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alexsmirnov
:
Sure. I'll write out all documents related to RichFaces 4 /JSF 2.0. Wiki pages are excellent for collaborative writing, but Jboss wiki engine is too slow...
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11:13am
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balunasj
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alexsmirnov: agreed -  it can be a pain
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11:13am
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balunasj
:
alexsmirnov: can you send that out when you finish, and I'll do the same
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11:13am
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alexsmirnov
:
ok.
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11:14am
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balunasj
:
ok everyone thanks - we'll hold off the rest of the agenda for next week