[
10:20am
]
balunasj
:
ok all we should probably get back at it
[
10:20am
]
balunasj
:
we have about 40 minutes left
[
10:20am
]
balunasj
:
I'd like to discuss http://community.jboss.org/wiki/RichFaces40ALPHA2SkinningStatus
[
10:21am
]
balunasj
:
and if there is time at the end talk about examples and requirements for A2
[
10:22am
]
balunasj
:
amarkhel: can you give us an overview, and point us to any updates from the last status meeting?
[
10:23am
]
amarkhel
:
balunasj: I haven't got a full oicture in mind now, I want to take proposials of Nick and Alex smirnow on that theme
[
10:24am
]
nbelaevski
:
amarkhel: we already discussed dynamic CSS - can you provide a short summary on this?
[
10:24am
]
balunasj
:
ok, I know we were also going to have lex work on this as well
[
10:24am
]
nbelaevski
:
amarkhel: so that Alex will give updates/corrections
[
10:24am
]
amarkhel
:
nbelaevski: yes, byt our discussion isn't completed
[
10:24am
]
nbelaevski
:
balunasj: Ilya asked Lex to join
[
10:25am
]
amarkhel
:
balunasj: We talk with Nick and near term tasks will be - creation of dynamic CSS renderer
[
10:26am
]
balunasj
:
nbelaevski: ok good
[
10:27am
]
balunasj
:
amarkhel: I believe at the last status meeting we also talked about a wiki page discussing the design and plan for review.
[
10:27am
]
amarkhel
:
balunasj:yes, but I wan't to understand picture self, before create wiki article
[
10:28am
]
balunasj
:
amarkhel: ic ok
[
10:29am
]
balunasj
:
amarkhel: can you fill me in on the dynamic CSS discussion up to this point?
[
10:29am
]
amarkhel
:
balunasj: My main question is - what problems has current implementation(3.3.X) and is it sense to take current implementation and embrace it
[
10:30am
]
nbelaevski
:
amarkhel: two main problems:
[
10:30am
]
nbelaevski
:
1) proprietary XML-based format problematic for IDE
[
10:31am
]
nbelaevski
:
2) dependency to RF fwk resources API
[
10:31am
]
amarkhel
:
nbelaevski: ok, that's what I want to hear...
[
10:31am
]
nbelaevski
:
both problems should be solved in 4.x
[
10:31am
]
alexsmirnov
:
amarkhel: at least, cureent implementation has 2 problems: xml-like format for dynamic CSS and using java2d buffered image that has problem on some environment including google app engine.
[
10:32am
]
amarkhel
:
good, understand now
[
10:32am
]
nbelaevski
:
alexsmirnov: right, we want some solution to pre-render images
[
10:32am
]
amarkhel
:
Second question is - what features desired to be add?
[
10:32am
]
balunasj
:
we also want to make sure we do not have duplicate css styles all over the place.
[
10:32am
]
balunasj
:
and early complaint in 3.3.X was # of css classes
[
10:33am
]
amarkhel
:
balunasj: yes, we tould about this with Nick
[
10:33am
]
balunasj
:
this was helped in later releases
[
10:33am
]
balunasj
:
amarkhel: ok
[
10:33am
]
nbelaevski
:
one more RFC is make dynamic CSS handling just from web application, so they will be easily modifiable at development stage
[
10:33am
]
alexsmirnov
:
The third problem is hidden: from initial design, RF provides custom RenderKit that allows to replace renderers for some components. We have not use that for a while.
[
10:34am
]
nbelaevski
:
alexsmirnov: is it necessary for skinning?
[
10:35am
]
balunasj
:
nbelaevski:can you explain your previous point a bit more?
[
10:35am
]
nbelaevski
:
"...RF provides custom RenderKit that allows to replace renderers for some components..." - is this a requirement for skinning support?
[
10:36am
]
balunasj
:
about handling from web app?
[
10:36am
]
nbelaevski
:
ah, sorry. ideally, CSS files should be modifiable without application restart, so they should be handled from web application resources as well
[
10:37am
]
amarkhel
:
nbelaevski: yes it is coll feature, agree
[
10:37am
]
amarkhel
:
cool
[
10:37am
]
alexsmirnov
:
nbelaevski: It's obsolete and should be removed.
[
10:37am
]
balunasj
:
yes agreed - rapid turn around for css is important because of how much you have tinker with it and may small changes.
[
10:37am
]
nbelaevski
:
that's the reason I want these files to be compiled dynamically in runtime and not by CDK
[
10:38am
]
nbelaevski
:
alexsmirnov: thanks
[
10:38am
]
amarkhel
:
nbelaevski: ok, understand now
[
10:38am
]
balunasj
:
nbelaevski: +1 - just thinking about perf - but we can cross that bridge when we there.
[
10:38am
]
alexsmirnov
:
nbelaevski: For production stage, compiled files would get better performance.
[
10:38am
]
nbelaevski
:
can I introduce several more points (non-technical) about skinning?
[
10:38am
]
balunasj
:
alexsmirnov: that is interesting - using the stages for this.
[
10:39am
]
balunasj
:
alexsmirnov: I agree and would at least like to have that investigated
[
10:39am
]
balunasj
:
nbelaevski: sure
[
10:39am
]
nbelaevski
:
so:
[
10:39am
]
nbelaevski
:
1) themes support
[
10:39am
]
nbelaevski
:
2) standard skinning support
[
10:40am
]
nbelaevski
:
seems all for now
[
10:40am
]
balunasj
:
lets start with 2) if that is ok
[
10:40am
]
nbelaevski
:
I'm ok
[
10:40am
]
balunasj
:
you mean skinning of standard html components, and other non richfaces widgets?
[
10:40am
]
nbelaevski
:
should I make short introduction?
[
10:40am
]
balunasj
:
nbelaevski: yes
[
10:40am
]
balunasj
:
please
[
10:41am
]
alexsmirnov
:
I wish to reduce number of parameters, the current set is too complicated. They should be calculated from couple of base things: color scheme, base size
[
10:41am
]
nbelaevski
:
balunasj: yes, there's skinning for standard inputs (wired via tag names) and predefined set of rich-* classes for different cases
[
10:42am
]
balunasj
:
alexsmirnov: agree
[
10:42am
]
ilya_shaikovsky
:
alexsmirnov, And Lex wanted to expand the list
[
10:42am
]
nbelaevski
:
http://anonsvn.jboss.org/repos/richfaces/branches/community/3.3.X/ui/core/src/main/resources/org/richfaces/renderkit/html/css/basic.xcss
[
10:42am
]
alexsmirnov
:
for example, all gradients use the same color with different saturation.
[
10:42am
]
nbelaevski
:
http://anonsvn.jboss.org/repos/richfaces/branches/community/3.3.X/ui/core/src/main/resources/org/richfaces/renderkit/html/css/basic_classes.xcss
[
10:42am
]
nbelaevski
:
examples for the two mentioned above
[
10:42am
]
balunasj
:
nbelaevski: looking...
[
10:43am
]
alexsmirnov
:
ilya_shaikovsky: I meant that most of parameters strictly depends from some base and can be calculated.
[
10:44am
]
balunasj
:
nbelaevski: ok - and what are thoughts for changes.
[
10:44am
]
ilya_shaikovsky
:
alexsmirnov, I also standed at this point but he listed problems with the aproach and wanted to stay at "sligthly extend" way
[
10:44am
]
nbelaevski
:
alexsmirnov: I wish we had skins generator, but Lex stated it's not possible
[
10:44am
]
rruss is now known as rruss|mtg.
[
10:44am
]
balunasj
:
personally I get concerned over the # and complexity of this support
[
10:44am
]
balunasj
:
i.e. browser dependent, and # of css classes
[
10:44am
]
nbelaevski
:
balunasj: one thought is that we are dropping support for IE6, so we can remove two levels of skinning we have now - basic & extended
[
10:45am
]
balunasj
:
nbelaevski: ah that is right - good point.
[
10:45am
]
nbelaevski
:
balunasj: this will make it browsers independent
[
10:45am
]
balunasj
:
+1
[
10:45am
]
nbelaevski
:
for other plans: review standard predefined classes
[
10:46am
]
nbelaevski
:
ilya_shaikovsky: do you know if someone uses them?
[
10:46am
]
balunasj
:
nbelaevski: I could image a RichFaces example that helps users define a skin if a true generator is not possible.
[
10:46am
]
balunasj
:
I've seen a question or two on this support, but it seems spotty to me.
[
10:46am
]
nbelaevski
:
balunasj: we had such for VCP - a predecessor of RichFaces
[
10:47am
]
balunasj
:
ic
[
10:47am
]
ilya_shaikovsky
:
nbelaevski, yes the questions "where I could look through all the classes definitions" seems told about the users uses them and wants to customize something more
[
10:47am
]
nbelaevski
:
ilya_shaikovsky: ok, so we are keeping them
[
10:47am
]
nbelaevski
:
balunasj: and I plan to migrate the feature in the scope of A2
[
10:48am
]
balunasj
:
I would rather make the list of styles small and well defined and give examples of how to use them
[
10:48am
]
balunasj
:
than have the auto skinning
[
10:48am
]
balunasj
:
I think  most people who are really going to use this will want to use the styles directly.
[
10:48am
]
ilya_shaikovsky
:
balunasj, but the users do not want to see comboBox with skinned input field and input text in the same for without
[
10:48am
]
•
balunasj
 
my $.02
[
10:49am
]
ilya_shaikovsky
:
and the same for buttons
[
10:49am
]
balunasj
:
nbelaevski: migrate the generator of skins?
[
10:49am
]
nbelaevski
:
balunasj: no, the feature itself
[
10:50am
]
nbelaevski
:
balunasj: generator seems to be something non-implementable
[
10:50am
]
balunasj
:
nbelaevski: missed that then in the thread - what is the "feature" ?
[
10:50am
]
nbelaevski
:
balunasj: standard skinning
[
10:50am
]
balunasj
:
ilya_shaikovsky: I think that is a argument for providing well defined styles and not automatic standard skinning.
[
10:51am
]
balunasj
:
nbelaevski: ok ic - was not sure if you were still talking about a specific aspect
[
10:51am
]
ilya_shaikovsky
:
balunasj, not sure that get the point completelly.. our skinning is not always "turned on"..
[
10:51am
]
nbelaevski
:
balunasj: no. I got the point about clases
[
10:52am
]
balunasj
:
nbelaevski: if you think we can do the standard skinning in a browser independent way, that can be overwritten easily I would support that.
[
10:52am
]
nbelaevski
:
balunasj: examples for classes are also good to have
[
10:52am
]
balunasj
:
ilya_shaikovsky: sure
[
10:52am
]
pmuir joined the chat room.
[
10:52am
]
balunasj
:
ilya_shaikovsky: you are tlaking about the standard skinning config param or other parts?
[
10:53am
]
nbelaevski
:
balunasj: most development time for it was spent on making this cross-browser because of IE6&7 (in quirks mode) not understanding necessary CSS selectors
[
10:53am
]
balunasj
:
nbelaevski: ok
[
10:54am
]
balunasj
:
nbelaevski: you also wanted to talk about themes?
[
10:54am
]
balunasj
:
we don't have much more time
[
10:54am
]
nbelaevski
:
balunasj: right
[
10:54am
]
ilya_shaikovsky
:
balunasj, I meant the same that Nick's just talked.. predefined skinning classes were need in order to create complete cross-browser solution which could be easily used by end developer
[
10:55am
]
nbelaevski
:
balunasj: themes are not implemented for A2 - that's my point for now
[
10:55am
]
nbelaevski
:
are you ok with this?
[
10:55am
]
balunasj
:
we can't get everything into A2, and yes I'm ok with that.
[
10:55am
]
balunasj
:
I think we need to think about how they are going to be implemented before then
[
10:55am
]
nbelaevski
:
balunasj: ok, just wanted everybody to be on the same page
[
10:56am
]
balunasj
:
but only to make sure we allow for them in a future release
[
10:56am
]
nbelaevski
:
balunasj: that's ok
[
10:56am
]
balunasj
:
so action items from this meeting:
[
10:56am
]
balunasj
:
Design and impl discussions and wiki page for review
[
10:57am
]
balunasj
:
Initial implementation estimates including planning time
[
10:57am
]
balunasj
:
jira's to cover the points
[
10:57am
]
balunasj
:
set up meeting to review
[
10:57am
]
balunasj
:
standard skinning tasks - wiki, impl
[
10:57am
]
balunasj
:
others?
[
10:58am
]
nbelaevski
:
documentation & samples
[
10:58am
]
balunasj
:
yup
[
10:58am
]
balunasj
:
thanks
[
10:58am
]
nbelaevski
:
for the skinning itself: integration with tables
[
10:58am
]
balunasj
:
amarkhel: please create a jira to cover these
[
10:58am
]
balunasj
:
nbelaevski: that is true and likely tricky I would think
[
10:58am
]
amarkhel
:
balunasj:sure
[
10:59am
]
ilya_shaikovsky
:
we will need Lex in order to check his doubts about reducing number of skin params and calculating some of them from base ones
[
10:59am
]
balunasj
:
yes - absolutly - I really want a smaller list of styles - it scares people away
[
10:59am
]
nbelaevski
:
ilya_shaikovsky: or his thoughts about increasing number of params
[
11:00am
]
ilya_shaikovsky
:
nbelaevski, yup
[
11:00am
]
balunasj
:
I've seen there reaction
[
11:00am
]
balunasj
:
ok all good points
[
11:00am
]
balunasj
:
lets wrap up - anything else critical for skinning right now?
[
11:01am
]
nbelaevski
:
balunasj: none from my side
[
11:01am
]
ilya_shaikovsky
:
yes seems all for now
[
11:02am
]
balunasj
:
ok guys thanks