1 2 Previous Next 22 Replies Latest reply on Nov 13, 2009 7:37 AM by Nicklas Karlsson

    Redhat needs to aggressively market CDI and Seam 3

    Arbi Sookazian Master

      Are they planning on doing this?  If yes, how?  Last time I checked, there was no advanced Seam training available.  I remember PMuir stated the CTO (MLittle?) would blog about this.  What's the link, etc.?


      They need to throw more money into the marketing of this and JBoss AS/EAP, otherwise Spring will continue to reign supreme in enterprise Java shops all around the world.  And I'm not interested in that in continuing to happen...

        • 1. Re: Redhat needs to aggressively market CDI and Seam 3
          Shervin Asgari Master

          I totally agree. I have screamed about update to the seam course or at least seam advanced, but seems like Redhat is not interested.

          • 2. Re: Redhat needs to aggressively market CDI and Seam 3
            Arbi Sookazian Master

            approx. 2 yrs ago GKing told me to pester Redhat marketing/sales about this, why should I have to do it?  Do they want their products/services to be successful or not?

            • 3. Re: Redhat needs to aggressively market CDI and Seam 3
              Shervin Asgari Master

              I see your point.
              Maybe we should create competing courses our own. My guess is that they will react to that and create ones one their own.

              • 4. Re: Redhat needs to aggressively market CDI and Seam 3
                Shervin Asgari Master

                I also wish the Seam 3 development discussions would be more open then the seam-dev mailing list. I am sure we could have participated to make things better, but thats a whole another discussion

                • 5. Re: Redhat needs to aggressively market CDI and Seam 3
                  Arbi Sookazian Master

                  Shervin Asgari wrote on Nov 06, 2009 23:38:


                  I see your point.
                  Maybe we should create competing courses our own. My guess is that they will react to that and create ones one their own.


                  always remember: supply and demand rule the markets.  always will.  when there is no demand, there is no supply...

                  • 6. Re: Redhat needs to aggressively market CDI and Seam 3
                    Nicklas Karlsson Master

                    Sell yourself as an EE6 consultant an teach Seam3. Actually, now that the Seam core has been given away and modules are portable, it's going to be interesting to see what Seam3 will look like.

                    • 7. Re: Redhat needs to aggressively market CDI and Seam 3
                      Pete Muir Master

                      You mean you want more conversations about it? Or, that the list isn't open? Or?


                      Pretty much everything we have discussed electronically about Seam 3 is available through the list or on this website. We haven't had any other formal discussions about Seam 3 (other than those in the pub of course ;-)


                      In general Seam contributors are autonomous and expected to be able to understand and challenge design decisions by reading code, not abstract design discussions.

                      • 8. Re: Redhat needs to aggressively market CDI and Seam 3
                        Pete Muir Master

                        Arbi, this really isn't the forum to discuss this. No one in senior management (who, as at all other companies) control the budget reads this forum, so all you are doing is preaching to the choir (of course we engineers on the project would love to see more money spent on marketing, and I push this with management at every opportunity I can).


                        The reason we tell you to push this with marketing was because we are pragmatists. Like most other companies, if a (big) customer is pushing for something, then it has more weight with management than pretty much anything else.


                        So, if you really believe in what you are saying, and aren't just complaining for the sake of it, then direct your energy where it could make a difference.


                        I asked Mark about a blog, but so far he hasn't found time I guess. Again, he doesn't read these forums, so direct your energy to the right place - send him an email.

                        • 9. Re: Redhat needs to aggressively market CDI and Seam 3
                          Shervin Asgari Master

                          Pete Muir wrote on Nov 07, 2009 18:06:


                          You mean you want more conversations about it? Or, that the list isn't open? Or?

                          Pretty much everything we have discussed electronically about Seam 3 is available through the list or on this website. We haven't had any other formal discussions about Seam 3 (other than those in the pub of course ;-)

                          In general Seam contributors are autonomous and expected to be able to understand and challenge design decisions by reading code, not abstract design discussions.


                          Yes I want more conversation about it. Haven't been any action on the dev lists for a while. If all your discussions have been publicly open, then where are they? Surely you are not referring to the seam-dev list? If yes, then how do you coordinate the development? Where are the code/architecture discussions? I for once, and I know Arbi too, has some questions regarding Seam 3 which are sort of unanswered. If we could have followed the electronical discussion then that would maybe have answered some. For instance, where is the svn? Is it open? When is the due date? What are the major changes between Seam 2 and 3 and so on. :-)


                          Is is a fair assumption, that alot of the discussions are face-to-face? (Non electronical)?

                          • 10. Re: Redhat needs to aggressively market CDI and Seam 3
                            Gavin King Master

                            Is is a fair assumption, that alot of the discussions are face-to-face? (Non electronical)?

                            No, not at all. We hardly see each other.


                            We do, however, chat from time to time on IM.

                            • 11. Re: Redhat needs to aggressively market CDI and Seam 3
                              Arbi Sookazian Master

                              Gavin King wrote on Nov 08, 2009 00:56:


                              Is is a fair assumption, that alot of the discussions are face-to-face? (Non electronical)?

                              No, not at all. We hardly see each other.

                              We do, however, chat from time to time on IM.



                              weak response.  he asked several questions and you answered the most boring one.  it's quite obvious you never see each other if you work in different locations, no?  (seemingly) closed door sessions, community is not involved in design and architecture and requirements of new products/systems...

                              • 12. Re: Redhat needs to aggressively market CDI and Seam 3
                                Arbi Sookazian Master

                                Pete Muir wrote on Nov 07, 2009 18:11:


                                Arbi, this really isn't the forum to discuss this. No one in senior management (who, as at all other companies) control the budget reads this forum, so all you are doing is preaching to the choir (of course we engineers on the project would love to see more money spent on marketing, and I push this with management at every opportunity I can).

                                The reason we tell you to push this with marketing was because we are pragmatists. Like most other companies, if a (big) customer is pushing for something, then it has more weight with management than pretty much anything else.

                                So, if you really believe in what you are saying, and aren't just complaining for the sake of it, then direct your energy where it could make a difference.

                                I asked Mark about a blog, but so far he hasn't found time I guess. Again, he doesn't read these forums, so direct your energy to the right place - send him an email.


                                I sent him this email, let's see what happens....



                                Hi Mark,

                                I was directed to you by Pete Muir in this forum thread: http://seamframework.org/Community/RedhatNeedsToAggressivelyMarketCDIAndSeam3.

                                Please provide some specifics regarding marketing, priority/importance in the stack and financing of Seam 3 and EE 6 initiatives (like Weld/CDI), etc.  I have used Seam 1.x and 2.x professionally for over 2.5 years now and JBoss AS for over 5 years.  I find it very disappointing that a very good framework like Seam has very low corporate adoption (especially compared to Spring, Hibernate, etc.)  It's very difficult to find a Seam developer job.

                                What is JBoss/Redhat plan regarding the future and success of Seam 3?  What about training?  There was no advanced Seam training last I checked.

                                Regards,

                                Arbi.
                                • 13. Re: Redhat needs to aggressively market CDI and Seam 3
                                  Arbi Sookazian Master

                                  response:



                                  Hi Arbi. As Pete has already mentioned to you I owe him a blog entry on this subject. I hope to be able to get to it soon, but the short answer is that I see Seam at the heart of everything we do in terms of component frameworks. It has moved on so much since Gavin and the team devised it and more and more of our projects are using it in areas that were initially unthought of. That's good for Seam and good for Red Hat/JBoss.

                                  Mark.
                                  • 14. Re: Redhat needs to aggressively market CDI and Seam 3
                                    Arbi Sookazian Master

                                    btw, I do find it impressive that the CTO of a company actually responded to a corporate developer's email.  pretty cool...

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