8 Replies Latest reply on Jul 1, 2009 7:36 PM by Drew Kutchar

    Where are the Seam jobs?!

    Arbi Sookazian Master

      I've used Seam professionally for over 2 yrs.  I am in the job market now and can't find any Seam jobs.


      I just searched www.indeed.com using seam developer and los angeles and got 3 hits.


      3 measely hits in one of the world's largest cities.


      Every job seems to require Spring.  So what is a Seam developer in the job market to do?


      How pathetic, esp. considering the fact that you don't need JBoss AS to use Seam (i.e. you don't have to be a JBoss shop)...


      btw, search on richfaces and los angeles gives basically 1 hit, the other position is already filled.


      How utilized/deployed in the industry/enterprises is the JBoss/Seam stack?  Maybe it's more popular in Europe?


      http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=seam+developer&l=los+angeles = 1 hit


      http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=spring+developer&l=los+angeles = 175 htis


      http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=richfaces&l=los+angeles = 1 hit


      I am currently reading Spring in Action, not much other choice at this point (and yes, Spring AOP in interesting, keeps your business logic clean but seems to be overkill; pointcuts and all that goofy stuff; how used is AOP in EE frameworks other than Spring?)


      Also, noticed that Spring has conversation scope equivalent in Web Flow and a hotel booking rip off...

        • 1. Re: Where are the Seam jobs?!
          John Ament Master

          plain and simple, spring is older and more mature.  the user base for it is much larger than seam is.  i've been using seam and webbeans on the job.  seam almost the entire time, webbeans just recently.  neither appears in any job description we send to HR though ;-)

          • 2. Re: Where are the Seam jobs?!
            Robert Morse Apprentice

            I'm looking for such a person in the Denver. CO area if anyone is interested.

            • 3. Re: Where are the Seam jobs?!
              Arbi Sookazian Master

              John Ament wrote on Jun 28, 2009 16:53:


              plain and simple, spring is older and more mature.  the user base for it is much larger than seam is.  i've been using seam and webbeans on the job.  seam almost the entire time, webbeans just recently.  neither appears in any job description we send to HR though ;-)


              Spring rapidly gained traction and deployments in Java enterprises soon after its intro in 2003/2004 (along with Hibernate).  The main deterrent at the time for J2EE 1.4 and previous specs was EJB2.x and prior versions.  The local interface was introduced when?



              With this feedback in mind, the EJB 2.0 expert group has created a local interface mechanism.

              http://java.sun.com/products/ejb/2.0.html


              And the lack of unit-testing capability with EJB 2.x made Spring/Hibernate stack a very attractive alternative.


              But now EJB 3.0 has been out for a while and still minimal industry adoption.  I guess it's very difficult to completely refactor an enterprise system to replace Spring/Hibernate with Seam/JPA, for example (what's the benefit to the client anyways? how to quantify?).  So most of the Seam adoption that's happened is for new projects (and our company transitioned from .NET to JBoss Seam, for example) and JBoss shops, esp. when considering jBPM integration with Seam/JBoss AS.


              But I'm not seeing any major gains in terms of adoption/traction and deployments of Seam 3 apps.  Even Grails is not very popular in industry jobs/deployments.  Will Web Beans being core of Seam 3 make enough of a difference?  Doubtful...

              • 4. Re: Where are the Seam jobs?!
                Francisco Jose Peredo Noguez Master

                John Jameson wrote on Jun 29, 2009 17:32:



                John Ament wrote on Jun 28, 2009 16:53:


                plain and simple, spring is older and more mature.  the user base for it is much larger than seam is.  i've been using seam and webbeans on the job.  seam almost the entire time, webbeans just recently.  neither appears in any job description we send to HR though ;-)


                Spring rapidly gained traction and deployments in Java enterprises soon after its intro in 2003/2004 (along with Hibernate).  The main deterrent at the time for J2EE 1.4 and previous specs was EJB2.x and prior versions.  The local interface was introduced when?

                With this feedback in mind, the EJB 2.0 expert group has created a local interface mechanism.

                http://java.sun.com/products/ejb/2.0.html

                And the lack of unit-testing capability with EJB 2.x made Spring/Hibernate stack a very attractive alternative.


                Maybe i am wrong, but I do not feel that the unit testing capabilities of EJB 3.x were enhanced very much... even with Seam, JEE testing is sluggish, and do not even get me started on the over complications of JEE deployment, or the urgent need of zero turnaround development.



                But now EJB 3.0 has been out for a while and still minimal industry adoption.  I guess it's very difficult to completely refactor an enterprise system to replace Spring/Hibernate with Seam/JPA, for example (what's the benefit to the client anyways? how to quantify?).  So most of the Seam adoption that's happened is for new projects (and our company transitioned from .NET to JBoss Seam, for example) and JBoss shops, esp. when considering jBPM integration with Seam/JBoss AS.

                But I'm not seeing any major gains in terms of adoption/traction and deployments of Seam 3 apps.  Even Grails is not very popular in industry jobs/deployments.  Will Web Beans being core of Seam 3 make enough of a difference?  Doubtful...


                Maybe... I certainly hope so... I think that the problems has always have been that ease of use has never been a priority for the JCP... WebBeans and JSF 2.0 will be, in my opinion, the first serious attempt to get something both standard and easier to handle for the regular developer... I hope it succeeds, but I do not feel very confident that it will.

                • 5. Re: Where are the Seam jobs?!
                  Nicklas Karlsson Master

                  Make your own opportunity! I'm sure there are many positions that are called something like Senior Java EE developer without any specifics. Get into an place like that with solid JCDI/Seam knowledge and convince them with demos and proofs of concept that the next project should be done with Seam. Personally, I would hesitate to employ a person that is just a Seam developer or just a Spring developer.


                  Granted, I see much room for improvement in the marketing of Seam. Like John said, Spring got a quick head start for being simple and getting the job done. Granted, the spring VC deal also helped, you can make anything look good with enough marketing ;-) It is now the job of Seam marketing to tell the world that we can do all that, too, but in a portable and standardized way.


                  Things that will help (some already present) among other things are



                  • Quick development (hot deployment etc)

                  • Great testability

                  • Great training possibilities (online, onsite, classes)

                  • Great support on the forums (more dev. support)

                  • Great modules (security, other technology integrations)

                  • Great migration/integration to other frameworks



                  (feel free to add to the list)

                  • 6. Re: Where are the Seam jobs?!
                    Shervin Asgari Master
                    <blockquote>
                    _Nicklas Karlsson wrote on Jun 30, 2009 07:44:_<br/>

                    = Great training possibilities (online, onsite, classes)
                    </blockquote>

                    I couldn't disagree more. The Seam classes/courses are the worse ever. After Redhat took over JBoss, all the JBoss related courses are out of date.
                    • 7. Re: Where are the Seam jobs?!
                      Nicklas Karlsson Master

                      I said will help (some already present) as in stuff needed if not already present

                      • 8. Re: Where are the Seam jobs?!
                        Drew Kutchar Newbie

                        That one LA Seam/Richfaces job that you're talking about is us. And we still haven't found a suitable candidate. Please send your resume to jobs AT venarc DOT com to apply if you're interested. We're located in Burbank, CA. Pretty cool/friendly environment.


                        - Drew