10 Replies Latest reply on Mar 29, 2004 8:11 AM by marc fleury

    pay-on-demand docs

    ahardy66 Novice

      Just a note to say that the JBoss Admin & Development manual is a bit of let-down after paying for it. If it was a book in a bookstore and I'd seen it beforehand, I would have saved myself the cash. $10 = 4 pints of beer.

      The inclusion of pages and pages of logging output - what's that in aid of?

      The bizarre diagrams as well, some of which are almost illegible. Weird.

      Plus there are holes in the documentation. For instance, where is a description of the .ear file Manifest?

      There you go. Room for improvement I think. And by the way, can you really make money on this? Is it worth scandalising the open-source community? Or is this an IMF demand?
      Adam

        • 1. Re: pay-on-demand docs
          jae Master

          while i do agree that there are holes in the docs and there are areas that could be improved upon, i think that they are really invaluable to have.

          i've gone back and referenced what is contained in those documents for my work on custom interceptors and subdeployers, and i don't think i would have been successful w/o the info contained in the docs.

          and besides, you're getting a full j2ee app server for free , is 10 bux really that much money to shell out for documentation?

          • 2. Re: pay-on-demand docs
            Darran Lofthouse Master

            What is it that you were actually trying to get out of the manual?

            I have found it invaluble when trying to work out how JBoss operates.

            Maybe I have got a different version of the documentation to you but I couldn't find any logging output that wasnt there to reinforce a point that was being made.

            Which diagrams are bizarre?

            What is it that you think is missing from the manual and which bits would you like to see improved?

            • 3. Re: pay-on-demand docs
              ahardy66 Novice

               

              "jae77" wrote:
              and besides, you're getting a full j2ee app server for free , is 10 bux really that much money to shell out for documentation?


              With no disrespect to JBoss as a product, this idea of charging $10 for the docs is appalling marketing. There is a whole mind-set behind the idea of open-source software. Anyway it's all been gone over before. Just don't forget that as a developer I can always get weblogic for 90 days or websphere for 60 or whatever, and not have to pay a thing, and have the online docs available.

              How much revenue does it generate? 1000 a month? 5000 a month? It would have to at least 1,500 a month to make it worth it - that way it would support a developer and be worth the intangible cost of alienating developers who see it as a lame concept.

              Look at mysql - that's the way to do it. You get developers adding to the docs as well all the time, so as you rewrite them, you have the comments from them about exactly where you need to improve it.

              • 4. Re: pay-on-demand docs
                jae Master

                 

                "ahardy66" wrote:
                Just don't forget that as a developer I can always get weblogic for 90 days or websphere for 60 or whatever, and not have to pay a thing, and have the online docs available.


                that is true, but at the end of that 60/90 day period, i have to pay an obscene amount of money (way more then 10 bux) in order to obtain a license so i can continue to use that product - whereas in jboss's case, i can continue using it for free.

                i don't disagree that the docs could be cleaned up and have more added to them, but at the same time, that 10 bux that i pay for it is also helping (in some small way) to keep the project alive, and is a small amount of money to pay to support a project i believe in.

                i'd much rather give money to open source software then "closed" source.

                • 5. Re: pay-on-demand docs
                  kkanagaraj Newbie

                  hey,
                  You guys are really confusing me, I just decided to buy that document so that I could know more on JBoss.net.
                  If that doc doesn't provide any info on that, definitely i will not buy it.
                  Please tell me how do i get more info on JBoss.net, Do I need to follow Axis documention? Will it suit for JBoss.net ??
                  reply me pls

                  • 6. Re: pay-on-demand docs
                    Darran Lofthouse Master

                     

                    With no disrespect to JBoss as a product, this idea of charging $10 for the docs is appalling marketing.


                    I don't quite understand what you mean by it is appaling marketing, if they want to charge for a service that they provide what is wrong with that.

                    There is a whole mind-set behind the idea of open-source software.


                    But you are unwilling to give anything back, how would you like to see the documentation improved?

                    Anyway it's all been gone over before.


                    In what way has it all been gone over before?

                    Just don't forget that as a developer I can always get weblogic for 90 days or websphere for 60 or whatever, and not have to pay a thing, and have the online docs available.


                    You may be able to get Weblogic and Websphere for free for a limited time, but what about the end user that will be running the app that you have developed?

                    How much revenue does it generate? 1000 a month? 5000 a month? It would have to at least 1,500 a month to make it worth it - that way it would support a developer and be worth the


                    Why do they need to justify how much they make to you? And what puts you in the position to consider it a lame concept? The JBoss group are obviously happy that selling the documentation works.

                    intangible cost of alienating developers who see it as a lame concept.


                    Again, anything to back this comment up?

                    Look at mysql - that's the way to do it. You get developers adding to the docs as well all the time, so as you rewrite them, you have the comments from them about exactly where you need to improve it.


                    Yes I agree the documentation for MySQL is excelent, however there are legal issues when using the MySQL database commercially without purchasing a licence as that is the way that they have decided to fund their development.



                    • 7. Re: pay-on-demand docs
                      ahardy66 Novice

                      Hang on a moment! Let me make a point that I am sure has been made a hundred times before: what makes JBoss different from Ant, emacs, Debian, Tomcat, Struts, the list server operator for my favourite mailing list etc etc?

                      I would be down $100 if I had to pay for all the docs. And when it gets that far, what will stop JBoss starting to charge for software too? There are some principles involved here.

                      It's the beginning of commercialisation and it's the effects of commercialisation that the original open-source founders were seeking to avoid. Commercialisation is useful in many areas, but there should be clear dividing lines between it and open-source, otherwise you will lose the benefits that open-source brought. JBoss is starting to push it and has obscured the boundaries.

                      When another open-source J2EE server comes along, then I'm sure it wouldn't take long for it to become the 1st choice for the open-source world. To me, JBoss is becoming too much like RedHat. Business models and 'enterprise' this and that.

                      PS whether I contribute or not (and I do) is actually irrelevant. And if I wanted to contribute financially, say I make alot of money with my current project (dream on!), I can donate at numerous places.

                      • 8. Re: pay-on-demand docs
                        Juha Lindfors Master

                         

                        "ahardy66" wrote:

                        And when it gets that far, what will stop JBoss starting to charge for software too?


                        There is nothing in the GPL compatible license that has ever prevented anyone from charging for the product (Linux distributors). However, the license gives you a right to redistribute and modify the software free of charge.


                        There are some principles involved here.


                        Yes, and it is apparent that you're not very familiar with them.


                        It's the beginning of commercialisation


                        Commericialization and free software are not contradictory forces. Please point your browser to http://www.fsf.org next and educate yourself.



                        • 9. Re: pay-on-demand docs
                          ahardy66 Novice

                          So I take it you guys are not swayed by my argument....

                          • 10. Re: pay-on-demand docs
                            marc fleury Master

                             

                            "ahardy66" wrote:
                            It's the beginning of commercialisation and it's the effects of commercialisation that the original open-source founders were seeking to avoid.


                            LOL, I love it when people tell us about what open source is all about.

                            WE ARE THE ***NEW*** OPEN SOURCE. We are professional open source, we are open source that works. The mail thread was the first time we told our users to SMD.

                            "ahardy66" wrote:

                            PS whether I contribute or not (and I do) is actually irrelevant.


                            No it is not, that is what it is all about. See the documentation allowed JBoss inc to get off the ground, it was a good thing. It is still a good thing. today the money we make there allows us to hire a pro, norman, to work on wiki and get the books going.