10 Replies Latest reply on Nov 14, 2013 10:03 AM by Kurt Stam

    Constructive Criticism

    Stan Silvert Master

      Hi Guys,

       

      I hope you'll accept this as constructive criticism.  I wanted to try S-Ramp.  I saw a nice video that you did.  Looks like a good product.

       

      But I've given up for now.  Where is the documentation?  I clicked on the "Documentation" link but what I mostly notice on the page are links to videos.  There is a big "Documentation" heading with a single, short line of text under it.  I didn't bother to look at that fine print.  Are the videos meant to be the documentation?

       

      After searching around on different pages for "written" documentation, I finally read that fine print to notice that there were documentation links.  On my browser (Firefox) it was hard to tell those were even links.  And again, the line of print is so small it isn't easily noticed as something I should care about.

       

      So I get to the installation section of the doc and it tells me to download the latest version and unzip.  Then run "ant install".  No dice.  It says jboss-eap-6.1.0.zip doesn't exist.  I don't want to use EAP.  I want to install on WildFly.  So the doc is out of date and the installer is trying to get me to do something I don't want to do.  I find the readme and it says I need to download both EAP and ModeShape.  Manually? Really?

       

      Surely there is an easy way to just edit s-ramp-build.properties to get it to do what I want, which is to install on my WildFly server.  Nope.  That's certainly not clear from the properties file.  So I open build.xml to try and decipher what the build is trying to do.  At this point I finally give up.  That's just way too much trouble.  I don't want to waste the rest of my day learning the ins and outs of S-Ramp installation.

       

      Hope this helps,

       

      Stan

        • 1. Re: Constructive Criticism
          Kurt Stam Master

          Thanks you Stan for trying it out.

           

          1. We'll try to enlarge the text of the document links; or make a table to make it more obvious.

           

          2. Most projects have dropped support for wildfly. We spent too much time chasing issue of APIs that were not stable. Instead we now only support EAP.

          See also ModeShape 3.2 and JBoss EAP | ModeShape | Planet JBoss Community. One issue that we cannot bundle up EAP; you have to sign up to get your copy. Such is the new landscape. We will likely support a Tomcat bundle again in the near future to get you started quickly, as well as a gear deployment; I doubt we will ever support Wildfly.

           

          Cheers,

           

          --Kurt

          • 2. Re: Constructive Criticism
            Stan Silvert Master

            Kurt Stam wrote:

             

            Thanks you Stan for trying it out.

             

            1. We'll try to enlarge the text of the document links; or make a table to make it more obvious.

             

            2. Most projects have dropped support for wildfly. We spent too much time chasing issue of APIs that were not stable. Instead we now only support EAP.

            See also ModeShape 3.2 and JBoss EAP | ModeShape | Planet JBoss Community. One issue that we cannot bundle up EAP; you have to sign up to get your copy. Such is the new landscape. We will likely support a Tomcat bundle again in the near future to get you started quickly, as well as a gear deployment; I doubt we will ever support Wildfly.

             

            Cheers,

             

            --Kurt

            So this only runs on EAP 6.1?  I had no idea.  (Document that in the installation docs.  Not just in a blog.)

             

            Also, what if I already have an EAP instance that I want to install it on?   I don't see any documentation for doing that.  The installer requires a zipped copy of EAP.

            • 3. Re: Constructive Criticism
              Gary Brown Master

              Hi Stan

               

              Thanks for the comments - they are all very constructive.

               

              I've made a quick change to the website to hopefully make the doc links stand out a bit better, although I think we need to revisit the design.

               

              In terms of support for wildfly - I wouldn't say that we will never support it, as ultimately it will be the basis for EAP7. I think the problem is that projects that build upon the JBoss application server (i.e. was AS7 and is now wildfly) have to deal with (1) productisation of their product on the EAP version, and (2) continuing feature development towards the next major version (e.g. wildfly in this case).

               

              As Overlord is a small project at this stage, we don't unfortunately have the resource to do both (1) and (2) at the same time. But hopefully as the community expands we will be able to do this in the future. So basically the Overlord team's current focus is on getting the sub-project's ready for the new release of the Integration Platform (previously SOA platform).

               

              However if anyone in the community would be interested in support of any of the Overlord sub-projects on WildFly, or any other platform, we would welcome the contributions

               

              Regards

              Gary

              • 4. Re: Constructive Criticism
                Kurt Stam Master

                Gary, I disagree. As far as I understand it Wildly will only release major releases (8.0.0, 9.0.0 etc). This means that there will never be a stable Wildfly unless you build it from source. EAP on the other hand *is* stable and it is now zero dollar download for developers. It basically forces all JBoss projects to use EAP, as I don't see people building Wildfly from source.  The only thing we could do to make it easier is to automate the EAP download by providing a script that takes your jboss.org credentials so it can download EAP for you. Or - if we want to offer a ready-to-go bundle we can use tomcat. The issue with Tomcat at the moment is that we have to port our SSO/SAML token solution.

                 

                --Kurt

                • 5. Re: Constructive Criticism
                  Stan Silvert Master

                  What changes are you making to the downloaded EAP instance?

                   

                  If you just carefully documented that then community users could figure out how to port to their own EAP instance.  And armed with that knowledge, you might get some folks to contribute toward other containers.

                   

                  Stan

                  • 6. Re: Constructive Criticism
                    Michael Burman Newbie

                    I'll hijack this thread a bit, since I didn't feel like creating a new one would be beneficial. Regarding the discussion in IRC:

                     

                    <asantos> KurtStam, I'm curious what's driving the release then?

                    <asantos> I should say what's driving another 1.x release

                    <KurtStam> asantos: community needs; I'd like to get outside developers on the project and there is not really a way for them to kick the tires

                    <asantos> i see

                    <KurtStam> plus I'd like to see s-ramp getting adopted outside of JBoss

                     

                    To this point, the first post is really the key. I actually tried to do some development, and to test the newest version, only to find out I wasted a lot of time and didn't get anything. Well, why? I could not find anywhere what's the actual building process, and which projects should I run. I went to the governance github page, first got the s-ramp repository, well, mvn clean install failed there beautifully. So I got the overlord-commons, compiled that one, tried again the s-ramp, no luck. Then I tried to s-ramp-distro, but still no luck. At this point I started to dig what's in the EricWittman's github repositories and tried s-ramp-dev-server from there. Well? No. I gave up at this point, enough wasted time.

                     

                    I'd say I did far more than normal user to even try to help the project. This isn't really "welcome to contribute to our project" attitude. What you'd need to do is create step-by-step documentation that makes me succeed, every time. The products themselves have good ideas, and for example S-RAMP could almost replace our current inhouse solution, but without the ability for a developer to easily get things to work, it's not going to get any contributions.

                    • 7. Re: Constructive Criticism
                      Kurt Stam Master

                      Thanks Michael and Stan, give me a few days. I fully agree that all of this is missing. I will post back on this thread and I would appreciate if you can then try it one more time.

                      • 8. Re: Constructive Criticism
                        Kurt Stam Master

                        Hi guys,

                         

                        Please check out the following blog post.

                        http://jboss-overlord.blogspot.com/2013/11/bleeding-edge-governance-getting-started.html

                         

                        I hope this is the missing piece to get started. I will ask Gary to get it more prominently featured on jboss.org/overlord.

                         

                        Cheers,

                         

                        --Kurt

                        • 9. Re: Constructive Criticism
                          Michael Burman Newbie

                          Hi,

                           

                          Small wish, as rest of us don't have access to Governance repo in any case, how about build.properties:

                           

                          git.governance.overlord-commons=https://github.com/Governance/overlord-commons.git

                          git.governance.s-ramp=https://github.com/Governance/s-ramp.git

                          git.governance.dtgov=https://github.com/Governance/dtgov.git

                           

                          This would allow downloading anonymous copy to try out the latest version. Then later, if required, using one's own fork to add patches.

                          • 10. Re: Constructive Criticism
                            Kurt Stam Master

                            Thanks Micheal, good point. Should be fixed now.

                             

                            Thx,

                             

                            --Kurt