11 Replies Latest reply on Nov 17, 2005 4:08 PM by Mike Habich

    @Marc Fleury: what's happening with jboss?

    Stefan Mayer Newbie

      Hi!

      I'm a J2EE Developer/Consulter and i was allways happy if it was possible to use JBoss as the J2EE app server. Now i'm reading that JBoss is trying to get rid of "unwanted" competitors (here a german ariticle: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/64762)

      JBoss was one of the Masterpieces of OSS.

      Please tell me: Is JBoss free? Can i use it in my Projects? Can i "sell" it to my customers? Can i consult them about application servers (including JBoss)? Can use the name JBoss on my Webpage? Should i switch the application server? Will this happen to hibernate?!?!?

      Greetings,
      Treb

        • 1. Re: @Marc Fleury: what's happening with jboss?
          Stefan Mayer Newbie

           

          "trebiani" wrote:
          (here a german ariticle: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/64762)

          what's happening to the company "Brockhaus"? http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=36995

          • 3. Re: @Marc Fleury: what's happening with jboss?
            Stefan Mayer Newbie

             

            "sacha.labourey@jboss.com" wrote:
            FYI:

            http://jboss.org/jbossBlog/blog/slabourey/2005/10/12/Clarification_on_JBoss_and_partnership_program.txt

            Regards,


            Sacha Labourey


            thank you very much for your reply. please don't understand me wrong but there so much to negative things about jboss to read on the web that i'm not really sure if it is legal to work as an jboss expert.
            well, "... we asked this company to stop such violations ..."
            is it a violation to provide consulting and support for jboss? i'm working with jboss since 1999 (oh yes, jboss was in the very beginning) and i can say that i know a lot about this peace of software.

            is it a violation that i have jboss consulting on my homepage?


            • 4. Re: @Marc Fleury: what's happening with jboss?
              Scott Stark Master

              Read about trademark usage, such as this faq:
              http://www.inta.org/info/faqsU.html


              WHEN CAN I USE ANOTHER'S TRADEMARK WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT?

              As a general matter, it is advisable to obtain the consent of a trademark owner before proceeding with use of their mark. Trademark law, however, does permit the use of another's mark (whether registered or unregistered) without their consent if the use of the mark is made in good faith for the purpose of merely describing the goods or services to which the mark relates or to accurately indicate compatibility with another's goods or services. Relevant considerations for determining whether use of another's mark constitutes "fair use" include, but are not necessarily limited to, the following:

              Bad faith. Intentionally using another's mark for the purpose of benefiting from the good will associated with the mark is not a permissible use of another person's mark without their consent.

              How the mark is used. Use of another person's mark should not be made for the purpose of promoting one's own goods or services without their consent. Visual placement and prominence of the other mark can bear upon whether use of another's mark may be construed as being for one's own promotional purposes.

              Confusion by consumers. Some uses of another's mark can suggest sponsorship or endorsement by the mark's owner and can confuse consumers into believing that there is an association between you and the owner of the mark. This is not a permissible use of another's mark without their consent.



              • 5. Re: @Marc Fleury: what's happening with jboss?
                Stefan Mayer Newbie

                 

                "scott.stark@jboss.org" wrote:

                WHEN CAN I USE ANOTHER'S TRADEMARK WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT?


                i'm misunderstood.

                i only wanted to know if i can act as a jboss consultant without paying jboss a lot of money.

                but i think this forum is the wrong place to get an answer.

                all interested can inform on these pages:
                english pages:
                http://thejbossissue.blogspot.com/

                in german:
                http://www.java-magazin.de/itr/news/psecom,id,24661,nodeid,10.html
                http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/64762

                • 6. Re: @Marc Fleury: what's happening with jboss?
                  Stefan Mayer Newbie

                  i found this statement: http://jboss.org/jbossBlog/blog/slabourey/?permalink=Clarification_on_JBoss_and_partnership_program.txt

                  this sounds very promising to me (thanks to Sacha Labourey) and i hope that every freelancer and company who spent the last years working with jboss can us the name jboss to offer their services.

                  • 7. Re: @Marc Fleury: what's happening with jboss?
                    Stefan Mayer Newbie

                    sorry for "spamming" this forum, but i found this on webarchive.org:

                    In the beginning there was EJBoss, an EJB Open Source Server. And then there were layers telling us that EJB was a trademark... well since we like what SUN does and we don't want to step on anyone's toe's we decided to change the name to jBoss by simply dropping the "e".

                    Sometimes fate has to hit you hard with a clue stick.


                    Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20000819060546/www.ejboss.org/jboss.htm

                    • 8. Re: @Marc Fleury: what's happening with jboss?
                      Sacha Labourey Master

                      Mr. Treb,

                      I think the statement in my blog answers your question. If not, please re-state it.

                      As for the EJBoss to JBoss name change, it is a well known story, what point are you trying to make? That we have decided to respect SUN's trademark? Yes, that is correct and we do intend to continue to respect other companies' rights in the same way we expect other companies to respects ours.

                      Regards,


                      Sacha Labourey

                      • 9. Re: @Marc Fleury: what's happening with jboss?
                        mazz Master

                        IANAL - but I think what I'm going to say is common sense and is correct. Lawyers and common sense don't tend to go together, but in this case, common sense should win :)

                        First, please read Sacha's blog. It explains things.

                        Secondly, I suspect, based from your tone and your additional post to another forum here, that you are really not interested in the answer or even asking a question you genuinely have. If you are merely just trying to stir up more hysteria, please go somewhere else to do that.

                        Anyway, whether you are genuine and asked an honest question or not, I think the point to the question raised here is, "Can I advertise that I am a consultant specializing in expertise on the JBoss application server?" without paying JBoss, Inc.

                        The answer to that is yes (which is what I think Scott was trying to say in his post). You do not need to pay JBoss, Inc. or be an official partner to do that.

                        That's fair use.

                        What isn't fair is if you name your company such that it has the name "JBoss" in it, or other JBoss trademarks. That's infringing because it makes you look like you are affiliated with JBoss, Inc. and you are attempting to benefit from a false relationship with JBoss, Inc. So, you can't name your consulting business, "JBoss Experts Group, LLC", as an example. Having your company web site "www.jbossexpertsgroup.com" is probably also off limits as well.

                        This is no different than any other business in any other market.

                        I can say, "John's AutoBody Shop" specializes in repairing "Mercedes Benz" vehicles. I can advertise that all I want - I never have to pay Mercedes for that - I don't even need to get their permission for that as far as I can tell. I'm utilizing the fair use of that trademarked name.

                        What I can NOT say is, "Mercedez Benz Specialty" as the name of my company. I'm infringing on Mercedez Benz' trademark. If I do that, I made it look like I'm affiliated with Mercedez Benz the company; customers might think they are getting repairs straight from the manufacturer - in effect, I have diluted the value of the Mercedez Benz brand.

                        There are plenty of examples of this type of thing over the decades - companies protecting their trademarks against dilution by asking people to cease and desist from squatting on a brand name in an improper way.

                        But, to your particular question - sounds like you are fine.

                        Please don't let the rabid rantings of blogs and the like scare you off (that is the definition of FUD, isn't it :-) If you truely are scared, then you may simply ask JBoss, Inc. (note: posting in this forum is not asking JBoss, Inc. - and remember, IANAL, and neither is anyone else here). There is nothing wrong with asking a company if a particular use of a trademark is OK. And more times than not, the company will say, "you are not violating the trademark, but thank you for your concern - go ahead and use it". Sacha's blog was attempting to address these concerns as well.

                        But, again, based on your publicly displayed anomosity here, I suspect it isn't at all about you having a genuine question dealing with your desire to repect another company's trademark. If it was, I would have thought you would have followed the typical business and professional avenue of contacting the trademark owner's headquarters and asking for clarification.

                        • 10. Re: @Marc Fleury: what's happening with jboss?
                          Stefan Mayer Newbie

                           

                          "mazz@jboss.com" wrote:
                          Secondly, I suspect, based from your tone and your additional post to another forum here, that you are really not interested in the answer or even asking a question you genuinely have. If you are merely just trying to stir up more hysteria, please go somewhere else to do that.


                          I'm not an english native speaker. Maybe that's why my tone and questions are not that clear as they should - sorry, i did not want to annoy anybody.

                          The upcoming "JBoss Trademark Hysteria" on many IT-News sites alienated me in such a way that i asked here in this forum.

                          Sacha Labourey Blog and your posting made JBoss's position very clear and i think the OSS community will have a bright future with JBoss.

                          Thank you for your answer,
                          treb

                          • 11. Re: @Marc Fleury: what's happening with jboss?
                            Mike Habich Newbie

                            After working for few years at the big corp ( this one was VERY blue), and seeing how much value those companies put into protecting their trademark ( IBM claims its name is its number 1 asset - worth Billions). It is only right that OS companies/projects do the same. JBoss produces a great product, and distributs it under an open source license. That fact in itself does not change the fact that the trademark is still one of the JBosses's more important assets. Under pertinent law if you dont protect it, you loose it - look Xerox or Kleanex - so we as developers should not jump in panic everytime someone asserts that they do have rights to THEIR trademark.
                            On seperate issue.... every developer should READ license of every OS product they use.