11 Replies Latest reply on Nov 13, 2007 11:51 AM by Max Rydahl Andersen

    [Productivity] Level 1 - Start from scratch

    Alessio Soldano Master

      This thread is about the second level of productivity efforts we're thinking about. Please refer to this http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=viewtopic&t=121127 for a topic introduction.

      Now customers know what a webservice solution is and that's what they're looking for. They need an easy way to start using our product. This include downloading and installing the required software, setting up the IDE dealing with libraries and so on, running the examples, etc.
      Productivity at this level means making all this simpler. The current JBossWS documentation is a good starting point for this, since it already features a "Quick start" section dealing with most of the outlined issues.

        • 1. Re: [Productivity] Level 1 - Start from scratch
          Alessio Soldano Master

          What are we going to do?

          Regarding the IDE setup, we might provide a basic Eclipse project configuration that users might use as a starting point for each of their ws-enabled projects. Otherwise we could create a simple presentation / movie showing users how to setup the environment the right way.
          We might also ask the Red Hat Developer Studio team to support the latest jbossws features (at least the wsprovide and wsconsume tools).

          Then we should link the documentation and the samples more tightly. This means that most of the samples and tests will be enriched with a brief description (a scenario) in the documentation. Then wherever the documentation covers a particular feature backed up by a sample or test case, there will be a link to the test-suite. Finally we could make the test-suite run easier providing an Eclipse project configuration with the tests only and a simplified Ant script to run each of them.

          What do you think about these ideas? Do you think something else might be useful?

          • 2. Re: [Productivity] Level 1 - Start from scratch
            Ole Matzura Novice

            Hi Alessio,

            Maybe one could also provide soapUI projects/testsuites/testcases for all these samples (once we get the soapui-plugin back in the build)? Since all request/response messages can be viewed in the UI it probably makes understanding/experimenting with them even easier for a ws-newbie.. (as a complement to java-based tests of course).. It might also get them started with the testing part of ws-development, which is hopefully a good thing :-)

            We are currently adding support for ws-security, ws-addressing, etc.. so that will be possible to demonstrate as well..

            just an idea..

            regards!

            /Ole
            eviware.com

            • 3. Re: [Productivity] Level 1 - Start from scratch
              Richard Opalka Master

               

              "alessio.soldano@jboss.com" wrote:

              Regarding the IDE setup, we might provide a basic Eclipse project configuration that users might use as a starting point for each of their ws-enabled projects.

              I agree. When we write the JBossWS test we're always doing the same things. If we would provide eclipse project configuration it would help us too. And as bonus, when we'll use these preconfigured configurations we'll test them too. This is a good idea.
              "alessio.soldano@jboss.com" wrote:

              Otherwise we could create a simple presentation / movie showing users how to setup the environment the right way.

              This is the NICE feature for us, but not SHOULD or MUST.
              "alessio.soldano@jboss.com" wrote:
              We might also ask the Red Hat Developer Studio team to support the latest jbossws features (at least the wsprovide and wsconsume tools).

              RHDS is based on JBoss IDE so our eclipse configurations should work there too ;-)

              "alessio.soldano@jboss.com" wrote:

              Then we should link the documentation and the samples more tightly. This means that most of the samples and tests will be enriched with a brief description (a scenario) in the documentation. Then wherever the documentation covers a particular feature backed up by a sample or test case, there will be a link to the test-suite. Finally we could make the test-suite run easier providing an Eclipse project configuration with the tests only and a simplified Ant script to run each of them.

              No comment on this. I fully agree.


              • 4. Re: [Productivity] Level 1 - Start from scratch
                Alessio Soldano Master

                Hi Ole,

                "omatzura" wrote:
                Maybe one could also provide soapUI projects/testsuites/testcases for all these samples (once we get the soapui-plugin back in the build)? [...]

                As far as I can see your ws plugin in JBossIDE / JBossTools might play an important role in this productivity strategy we're trying to figure out.
                We, as JBossWS team, could endorse it for the IDE tooling aspect of this productivity strategy, also contributing with requirements, jira issues and so on.
                For the time being we think that having the plugin support our JAX-WS tools would be really great and the most important thing to start with.



                • 5. Re: [Productivity] Level 1 - Start from scratch
                  Stefano Maestri Expert

                  Well,
                  I understand that Eclipse/RHDS config would be great for a lot of users, but IMHO could be useful to provide a standard ant's build.xml. It could be independent from customer's IDE and IMHO much more readable and clear to study and understand by java developers.

                  Ideas about scenarios is very very good. Moreover I suggest to think about a guided path (in docs) driving users from easier to complex example gradually and explaining scenarios and samples to get in touch with features and problems of ws step by step, eventually with reference to explaination in level 0.

                  hoping it might help

                  • 6. Re: [Productivity] Level 1 - Start from scratch
                    Richard Opalka Master

                    Our improved documentation guided paths should include also paths like:
                    If you are familiar with SOAP and WSDL you can skip chapters X, Y, Z.

                    Richard

                    • 7. Re: [Productivity] Level 1 - Start from scratch
                      Cris Newbie

                      1. I think it would be helpful to specify at each step exactly what is being done and what files the user should expect to have after completing it.
                      i.e. "First step is to create the remote interface and the service class, with annotations so-and-so, which control aspects xyz. After doing so, you should have these files, structured as follows:..."

                      2. Also, clear indication of which files are generated automatically, at which step and with which tools would be a great help for beginners.

                      (The JBossWS documentation as it is now offers good building bricks, so to say, but it doesn't always make it clear what to start with or where to use them to get a desired effect)

                      3. I also agree with maeste above about the advantages of using standard ant build.xml files. I think it is daunting experience for a user who is both a newbie with WS and not using the IDE described in the tutorial to have to try and adapt the solution to their own config. There are many enough concepts and tools one must get familiar with in order to be comfortable using WS, and having to understand an IDE on top of that does not help ;)

                      (Plus, I have the feeling working through an IDE puts details crucial for understanding WS in a "black box", which is good when everything is working perfectly, but it's not very helpful when, more often than not, things go wrong)

                      • 8. Re: [Productivity] Level 1 - Start from scratch
                        Richard Opalka Master

                         

                        "timeagentess" wrote:

                        3. I also agree with maeste above about the advantages of using standard ant build.xml files. I think it is daunting experience for a user who is both a newbie with WS and not using the IDE described in the tutorial to have to try and adapt the solution to their own config. There are many enough concepts and tools one must get familiar with in order to be comfortable using WS, and having to understand an IDE on top of that does not help ;)


                        This is exactly how I feel it too. Many users preffer different IDE's because of company standards etc. But ANT build files are supported by many of them.

                        • 9. Re: [Productivity] Level 1 - Start from scratch
                          Max Rydahl Andersen Master

                          I finally got around to read through these various threads about WS and productivity efforts.

                          I don't disagree with much in these threads so let me just state some points that you might or might not be aware of ;)

                          0) I am not a big WS guy - I've found WS to be to clunky to be bothered with; mainly because even with tooling WS is an XML hell and waaay to compliated (I know the annotated way make this more managable but annotation solutions didn't exist when I had to bother with web services ;) - Just know that when I in the future ask some stupid WS beginner question or assume too much or too litle about WS.

                          1) The only WS tooling we have right now in RHDS is what comes with Eclipse WTP (and that is mainly axis biased)

                          2) We *want* to get SoapUI back into the JBossTools build again - once when we get over the release hurdle of JBossTools/RHDS GA this will be a priority

                          3) Be aware that just because something is in JBoss Tools does not mean it will show up in RHDS

                          4) Looking into how you can integrate your docs/samples with Eclipse Cheatsheets would be very interesting

                          5) Providing Ant or Maven kind of samples is good - neither of these exclude good JBoss Tools support as long as they are done correctly

                          6) We/you shouldn't just go out and create an isolated WS-way of creating sample/projects - look into how the eclipse best support it...just using Eclipse as an glorified text editor to calling ant isn't really adding value ;)

                          7) We need someone who knows about WS to build proper WS support into tooling....preferably someone who likes to do both WS and write plugins ;)



                          • 10. Re: [Productivity] Level 1 - Start from scratch
                            Alessio Soldano Master

                            Hi Max,
                            thanks for the time spent in reading these threads.

                            "max.andersen@jboss.com" wrote:
                            0) I am not a big WS guy - I've found WS to be to clunky to be bothered with; mainly because even with tooling WS is an XML hell and waaay to compliated (I know the annotated way make this more managable but annotation solutions didn't exist when I had to bother with web services ;) - Just know that when I in the future ask some stupid WS beginner question or assume too much or too litle about WS.
                            It's almost the opposite for me, never worked at plugin development before.


                            1) The only WS tooling we have right now in RHDS is what comes with Eclipse WTP (and that is mainly axis biased)

                            2) We *want* to get SoapUI back into the JBossTools build again - once when we get over the release hurdle of JBossTools/RHDS GA this will be a priority

                            OK, these are 2 important things, thanks for stating them clearly.
                            In particular I also think it will be really good to have the SoapUI plugin back in the build again; I expect this integration to give JBossTools the same functions RHDS has from the WTP Eclipse, but based on JBossWS instead of Axis.


                            3) Be aware that just because something is in JBoss Tools does not mean it will show up in RHDS

                            Does this simply means that things from JBossTools are not automatically coded into RHDS too, but they require additional work and this depends on strategic decisions about RHDS features, or I am missing something else?


                            4) Looking into how you can integrate your docs/samples with Eclipse Cheatsheets would be very interesting

                            Thanks for the suggestion, I'll think about this too.


                            5) Providing Ant or Maven kind of samples is good - neither of these exclude good JBoss Tools support as long as they are done correctly

                            6) We/you shouldn't just go out and create an isolated WS-way of creating sample/projects - look into how the eclipse best support it...just using Eclipse as an glorified text editor to calling ant isn't really adding value ;)

                            I agree with you, Ant based samples and JBoss Tools / Eclipse support do not exclude each other and I believe providing both is the right things to do. In particular on point 6, I think I get the overall idea that is, of course, let's leverage what Eclipse is beyond a powerful text editor to provide ws added value. May be we might go a bit further into details on this in future..

                            7) We need someone who knows about WS to build proper WS support into tooling....preferably someone who likes to do both WS and write plugins ;)

                            I understand what you mean. After and apart having SoapUi back, further WS tooling efforts will of course require our contribution.


                            • 11. Re: [Productivity] Level 1 - Start from scratch
                              Max Rydahl Andersen Master

                               


                              1) The only WS tooling we have right now in RHDS is what comes with Eclipse WTP (and that is mainly axis biased)

                              2) We *want* to get SoapUI back into the JBossTools build again - once when we get over the release hurdle of JBossTools/RHDS GA this will be a priority

                              OK, these are 2 important things, thanks for stating them clearly.
                              In particular I also think it will be really good to have the SoapUI plugin back in the build again; I expect this integration to give JBossTools the same functions RHDS has from the WTP Eclipse, but based on JBossWS instead of Axis.


                              SoapUI and the Eclipse WTP integration are not integrated afaik. They have different purposes in life.

                              The bad news is that soapui is not going to continue supporting the jbossws specific parts of their tooling anymore - This might not be a big issue if JBossWS are going to change some of their tool/stack....is there any status/updates on that ? (I haven't followed it closely - I just heard it was on the table of upcoming changes)


                              3) Be aware that just because something is in JBoss Tools does not mean it will show up in RHDS

                              Does this simply means that things from JBossTools are not automatically coded into RHDS too, but they require additional work and this depends on strategic decisions about RHDS features, or I am missing something else?


                              RHDS goal is to match what is in the JBoss EAP platform and related products. That can result in things being excluded; also if something in jbosstools is deemed not mature enough for full support we will exclude it or simply disable it by default in RHDS and giving the option for theuser to enable it (with the notice it is not supported)

                              But the general rule is that JBossTools has all the new things and RHDS will follow that as closely as possible.


                              5) Providing Ant or Maven kind of samples is good - neither of these exclude good JBoss Tools support as long as they are done correctly

                              6) We/you shouldn't just go out and create an isolated WS-way of creating sample/projects - look into how the eclipse best support it...just using Eclipse as an glorified text editor to calling ant isn't really adding value ;)

                              I agree with you, Ant based samples and JBoss Tools / Eclipse support do not exclude each other and I believe providing both is the right things to do. In particular on point 6, I think I get the overall idea that is, of course, let's leverage what Eclipse is beyond a powerful text editor to provide ws added value. May be we might go a bit further into details on this in future..


                              yup.

                              7) We need someone who knows about WS to build proper WS support into tooling....preferably someone who likes to do both WS and write plugins ;)